FFR Suggestions

[TheSaxRunner05]

I'd have at least 5, it would make me want to push for 10 if that was a thing.

[Adalicia]

Make it so the credits spent in the FFR Shop are sent to the respective simfilers when their songs are purchased :3

Edit: Unless of course that already happens hehu, I'm working on the assumption they just disappear or something. But if not this way is more economic and could potentially incite more activity to the batch and shop, so please consider

[devonin]

I would assume everybody who ever did a stepfile for this game either doesn't play anymore, or has more credits than they could possibly use.

[Adalicia]

They have more credits than they could use because there's nothing to spend it on. If simfilers got a credit commission there's more chance the shop would start seeing more purchasable songs, more purchasable songs = more opportunity to spent those credits

[devonin]

I mean...they can just make any song they add be a purchased song whenever they want. The thing about purchased songs is they get seen/played by fewer people.

[Adalicia]

And I mean, there's a point where the credit system becomes completely redundant to anyone who has played long enough, given that "they can just make any song they add be a purchased song whenever they want" people might actually start requesting their accepted files be added for purchase if they had an incentive to. A virtual currency in-games is only as viable as the resources available to spend it on, if there's little means to spend the economy stagnates and the value of the credits becomes worthless. Currency exists to exchange for goods and services, without those why even have credits? I'm just trying promote purpose is all

[devonin]

Originally Posted by Adalicia

And I mean, there's a point where the credit system becomes completely redundant to anyone who has played long enough, given that "they can just make any song they add be a purchased song whenever they want" people might actually start requesting their accepted files be added for purchase if they had an incentive to. A virtual currency in-games is only as viable as the resources available to spend it on, if there's little means to spend the economy stagnates and the value of the credits becomes worthless. Currency exists to exchange for goods and services, without those why even have credits? I'm just trying promote purpose is all

Is there a compelling reason to even -have- secret and purchased songs? Like, do you think the game would be worse if we just made every song always available? Or tied the currently secret/purchased genres into a bunch of new kinds of skill token?

The virtual currency doesn't need to be viable. The volume of credits floating around is so high that anybody who wants to have all the purchased and secret songs just can. Having credits from the shop go to the person who made the stepfile also involves the wildly larger task of "Completely redoing the entire credit system to make it so there's anything to actually bother doing with it to make getting it at all desirable"

Have suggestions for that as well?

[MrPoptart]

We have credits so we can hoard them to unlock secret songs. If it wasn't for those I would have just bought all the shop songs.

[Adalicia]

Which ends at 150k. Afterwards there's no need for any more credits. I should mention the last song added to the shop was december 2014

[rushyrulz]

Originally Posted by devonin

Is there a compelling reason to even -have- secret and purchased songs? Like, do you think the game would be worse if we just made every song always available? Or tied the currently secret/purchased genres into a bunch of new kinds of skill token?

Unlockables like that do add precious grind value to the game to keep people playing, but that wears off pretty quickly when you put it against the 1500+ completely free and public files in game.

[TheSaxRunner05]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

Unlockables like that do add precious grind value to the game to keep people playing, but that wears off pretty quickly when you put it against the 1500+ completely free and public files in game.

Somehow automate and merge the TCG into the game itself and people can buy packs

[Adalicia]

Originally Posted by devonin

Is there a compelling reason to even -have- secret and purchased songs? Like, do you think the game would be worse if we just made every song always available? Or tied the currently secret/purchased genres into a bunch of new kinds of skill token?

The virtual currency doesn't need to be viable. The volume of credits floating around is so high that anybody who wants to have all the purchased and secret songs just can. Having credits from the shop go to the person who made the stepfile also involves the wildly larger task of "Completely redoing the entire credit system to make it so there's anything to actually bother doing with it to make getting it at all desirable"

Have suggestions for that as well?

-Yes.
-No, didn't you write the "Logical Fallacy and You!" topic? lovely.
-The third question is an interesting proposal, actually.
-And finally: plenty of them. Though I'll save my advice. The game is good enough and people know what they're doing. I'll leave em to it.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by Adalicia

-Yes.
-No, didn't you write the "Logical Fallacy and You!" topic? lovely.
-The third question is an interesting proposal, actually.
-And finally: plenty of them. Though I'll save my advice. The game is good enough and people know what they're doing. I'll leave em to it.

So yes there's a compelling reason to keep them, but no the game wouldn't be worse if they were taken out? And if you have a bunch of suggestions, saying you're going to not make them, in the suggestions forum, at the request of site staff asking you to make suggestions, is sort of confusing to me.

It's Ignoratio elenchi. Cause if that was supposed to be arguing (which I'm sure you're normally quite good at) then maybe cut the modus ponen/tollen bullshit and people won't be dissuaded from wasting their time long enough to explain their perspective. especially the ones who are only trying to validate whatever reasoning is behind the decision to retain some outdated incentivising ploy whose only intention is site growth. My intention is the benefit of this site and the community, what's yours?

Have you considered that my questions were actually entirely genuine and asked entirely genuinely and not as a rhetorical ploy? Like...it's not a red herring to ask if you think the game would be worse with no purchased/secret songs in a thread about how to make the purchased genre more relevant. I think one of the perfectly valid opinions to have about "What to do about credits/purchased genre" is "Get rid of it"

Asking you for where you stand on the general subject helps address ideas about the specific suggestion you made. If you think that credits might be something that could just be removed, then there's more to talk about in terms of "finding ways to reward step artists" when we've established that you aren't mandatorily marrying the idea to the credits/shop system. It also establishes whether what you're doing is primarily searching for ways to incentivize step artists to step, or whether you are primarily searching for ways to make credits relevant or the shop relevant or what.

My intention is always the benefit of the site and community.

Originally Posted by Dinglesberry

I think the best thing for credits would be to just wipe everyones credits (ommggg people will cry, the same people who probably say credits are worthless tho???) and then add things to buy with them that people would actually want, e.g. custom username color on ffr forums, custom user title color, custom name colour in the FFR multiplayer lobby etc.

If the benefits are intangible (like username colours etc) do you think it's necessary to wipe all current credits? Is it an issue if the people who've been playing for years can already just get whatever they want? I suppose we'd need to be careful about scaling the costs of things. We should see if we've got data on like...total credit count and how quickly credits enter into the game. We could probably mostly figure it out with daily gameplay data. Would you envision this stuff being like, for a week/month at a time, or the ability to just purchase the ability to customize it? Vets can edit usertitles, so would we also take that away? I'm all for finding ways to make credits relevant beyond "Spending 155,354 and also holding onto 150,000" but how much do you even think "wanting to get access to all the purchased/secret songs" is actually driving activity?

[Dinglesberry]

once you become smart enough/invested enough in the game, you could just make your own custom engine, and put your custom files on it.

heck, you could even befriend some steppers, and get them to send you their files (I have chaoz japan v2 for some reason in SM, the credit shop file).

I think the best thing for credits would be to just wipe everyones credits (ommggg people will cry, the same people who probably say credits are worthless tho???) and then add things to buy with them that people would actually want, e.g. custom username color on ffr forums, custom user title color, custom name colour in the FFR multiplayer lobby etc.

I remember waaaay back in the day, you could support FFR and you could use the new engine which had stuff like mirror etc (I remember I used to flip my monitor upside down, play upscroll, and reverse my keybinds cause i was too cheap to buy it lul).. Perhaps there could be a way to like, buy "supporter" with credits, i dunno mang, osu has supporter and it just has small features like being able to download files ingame, custom colored name in chat etc.

[TheSaxRunner05]

I wish there was a "purchase all secret songs" option for 150,000. Then it would essentially "bank" those credits so you never have to worry about keeping 150,000 on you.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by TheSaxRunner05

I wish there was a "purchase all secret songs" option for 150,000. Then it would essentially "bank" those credits so you never have to worry about keeping 150,000 on you.

If they individually "cost" what they needed to be unlocked it would be waaaaay more than 150k.

[One Winged Angel]

Originally Posted by devonin

If they individually "cost" what they needed to be unlocked it would be waaaaay more than 150k.

Ok but he wasn't insinuating the files would need to be purchased individually by each chart's credit unlock count. He flat out suggested a one time payment of 150k, which is all that's needed to retain everything available there.

I don't see the point of this post.

[rushyrulz]

not a bad idea tbh

[devonin]

it's an implementation as a willpower button. I'd rather look at ways to make credits actually worth caring about. Having 150k and not spending it and having 150k and not spending it via pushing a button that makes it look like you have 150k less than you do are basically the same thing.

I'm more concerned with how we want to look at the current grind to fully unlock songs. It's a little over 300,000 credits to be able to play everything, where "everything" is an additional what, 177 songs out of 2,125?

And by the time you've gotten 300k credits from actual gameplay, a good chunk of the songs you've unlocked are like...play once for the AAA if you even care about AAAs and not just your skill level from top 15 songs.

That's why I keep trying to get at whether people's suggestions are specifically about wanting credits to mean something, or about general desires for game things, or about, since credits exist, feeling like steps need to be taken to justify their existence.


Like, RATO is publicly available but clearly signposted that it is really hard and not for casual playing, and it's been played by 26,644 people, over 200,000 times.

Conversely, ==Planet KARMA== which is the end goal of the Secret genre has been played by only 1,326 people and been played only 19,000 times. More individual people have played RATO than the total gameplays for all players combined on KARMA. And Karma is the older song by about 100 songs.

So to me it seems more pointful to evaluate how the system works at all from a core perspective of "Are purchased/Secret songs even DOING anything useful?"

[rushyrulz]

Yeah, credits are a bit of a novelty at this point-- just a number to try and grind up.

Pretty much every user-hosted tournament gets a prize pool of over a million because everybody has so much excess with nothing to spend it on. I just pissed away a million in the gambling hall the other day and don't even care.

Purchased and Secret songs could probably be released from behind their respective credit walls, but only if we come up with an inventive way to spend credits instead. I have proposed that username changes in the future, if that ever happens, would cost a large sum of credits beyond the first one which I think should be free or very cheap.

On the other side, logically, an in-game currency in a rhythm game should be used to unlock songs and other purposes don't really make sense. Noteskins, client customization, etc. could have been (and perhaps still can be, but bring on the outrage) another outlet for credits, but we already have those things for free now.

Another outlet I can think of is an official* FFR user-submitted file playlist where users may submit charts they stepped of songs that FFR has permission to use to an alternate FFR playlist that is not a part of any leaderboards, but also doesn't have a rigorous and strict judging process. Submitting files to this engine/playlist would require a simple verification by a moderator and a reasonable credit fee. But again, this is kind of already done with FFRMania.

*Available by default in the Engine Playlists menu